Norock, your defense of abuse of nature seems to wander straight through moral relativism and set up camp in sociopathy. Hell, if less orders are fair game to be abused, why don't we just cut out the middle man and test drugs on poor people? They're inferior to us, right, and in nature animals have no time for the weak, and it would save money on welfare, and the results would be even more applicable! Right?

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The Polito form is dead, insect.

Obviously, there should be careful research done and enough chemical and biological understanding of the drug being tested so that as little harm --if any-- can come to a very small group.

Humans are a specieistic animal, we look out for our own, I would NEVER condone human testing unless the drug had been tested on animals so that it was believed to be safe, and only then with the consent of the human party.

There are some things that must be done for the advancement and up-keep of our species. If you have a better Idea of how to make sure drugs will not be harmful to the body, I'd be glad to hear it.

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            ...life is good...
...mai ho oni i ka wai lana malie...

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why don't we just cut out the middle man and test drugs on poor people? They're inferior to us, right, and in nature animals have no time for the weak, and it would save money on welfare, and the results would be even more applicable! Right?

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We do.  - What type of person signs up for clinical drug trials?

Volunteers are paid up to £150 a day to take part in clinical trials.

Healthy volunteers are used to test the safety of the drug in "phase one" of the trial before further tests with people who have the condition to determine whether the drugs work.

£150 a day certainly insn't going to intice a hot-shot laywer into risking his health....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4807042.stm

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The truth is what money can be made from a lie.

So do humans not have any responsibility to safeguard the "lower orders"? Or do we get special privilidges to say "it's okay, this is how things go down in nature" while at the same time abusing the natural order of things for our own gain?

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The Polito form is dead, insect.

I believe that we have a certain responsibility to use only what is necessary and follow the conditions I mentioned above; but the fact remains that we are still animals, and the survival of OUR species is paramount to us.

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            ...life is good...
...mai ho oni i ka wai lana malie...

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"It's unscientific, immoral and finacially unsound. It's also dangerous because the results do not apply easily to humans."

Dispute.

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There is literally no way it can be inherently unscientific. Either you do it scientifically or not. It is also probably much more financially sound than just making a bunch of drugs and jumping into human testing and hoping for the best, or by trying to expensively simulate in vivo conditions in vitro.

One would imagine it is also less dangerous than just throwing drugs at humans and hoping for the best.

The only leg you have to stand on is being against it based on morality, and that varies from person to person, so you'll be wrestling with shadows on that one.

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"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

It would be a tiring conversation.

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"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

"animal testing is just plain wrong becau...."

"a-a-ah, your forgeting somthing"

"what"

"error theory"

"fuck, I was kinda hoping you had forgotten about that."

"nope, sorry"

"ah well, you up for ice-cream and scrabble?, I think I might stand a chance of winning that"

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The truth is what money can be made from a lie.

Researchers keep lab pets, reject or ignore new computer technology that can replace or reduce the need for animal tissue and researchers and their funders often try and downplay concerns over the fact that rats simply aren't people.

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Massive, epic adventure, multi-coloured, multi-layered.
Sort of two/three dimensional Wizard of Oz for the future.