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Quote: from August Rush at 1:37 pm on July 19, 2008

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JohnQ & Fenton
 You are looking for holes in my argument.

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Pardon me, but isn't that the essence of debate?

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Yes it is, but you seem to be picking it to death.
I understand you disagree with my points but other people agree with them.

Keep an open mind, you can't always be right. Think for a second that there may actually be some promise in what im suggesting

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From the UK? - Join the group!

Please Give Me Points :-)

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Quote: from August Rush at 1:37 pm on July 19, 2008

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JohnQ & Fenton    
You are looking for holes in my argument.

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Pardon me, but isn't that the essence of debate?

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It's not supposed to be a debate. He's giving his reasoning for more assistance and asking for support through it.

...and didn't you read what I typed? This middleman wouldn't be a mod or a member. Their title would be a "middleman".

You guys astound me.

I'm going to go to work.

Post edited at 6:12 pm on July 19, 2008 by Prince o palities

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*!~Keep your head towards the sun and the shadows will stay behind you~!*
*!~Jgain6 is my LW twin~!*

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Quote: from JohnQ at 9:38 pm on July 19, 2008

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Quote: from El Manana at 9:29 pm on July 19, 2008

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First of all, I'm very sorry about your executed friend.    

  LW has lost it's true meaning and is now stuck in a limbo between a place to express yourself freely and a support site.  This makes it a breeding ground for trolls and spam, especially for the "support" context.  I have grown tired of LiveWire's ways (this is not my first account), part of this because of the moderation staff.  I am not sure whether this part of the site can ever truly be fixed, be it by people appointed to moderate mods or the promotion of multiple admins, but I'm at the brink of giving up altogether.  

  You're right, the oversight board has next to no power and rarely flexes its muscle anyways.  I've witnessed the moderation staff regularly abuse its powers, and there are guidelines on this site that are absolutely ridiculous, like the deletion of posts because there is "gratuitous" use of language or sexual terms.  

  I have witnessed another member leave this site to start his own support forum, which has going pretty well.  I myself am thinking about creating my own forum, but not a support oriented one, just a place designed for teen.  Somewhat like a hangout site, my forum would have no rules except no posting porn and no threatening another member or encouraging violence.  Maybe my liberal views are just seeping into my common sense, who knows?  

  Anyways, I'm going off on a tangent, but I agree with you.

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 We will see how long this site of your friend's lasts. Neo's website? Just because he has different views than the mods of LW you think this is going to solve all  problems throughout different forums on the internet?  

 People will not change under a new moderation team, system, or website. People are who they are, and it seems they either don't want help anymore or they're too worried to post their problems here..  

 

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In my opinion I don't think this site harbors a supportive environment anymore. As Briley 07 said earlier the support on this site is pretty much dead.

It's got nothing to do with whether people want help anymore or not, this site simply isnt providing it.

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There is an entire portion of this site dedicated to support, and it's chock full of helpful members who love nothing more than to solve the life problems of every sap who logs on to LW after impregnating their girlfriend, getting in a fight with their mom, or dealing with the bully at school.

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Dear World,
You need me.

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Quote: from Fenton at 4:39 pm on July 19, 2008

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Quote: from August Rush at 1:37 pm on July 19, 2008

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JohnQ & Fenton
You are looking for holes in my argument.

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Pardon me, but isn't that the essence of debate?

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It's not supposed to be a debate. He's giving his reasoning for more assistance and asking for support through it.  

...and didn't you read what I typed? This middleman wouldn't be a mod or a member. Their title would be a "middleman".  

You guys astound me.  

I'm going to go to work.  

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And you're not reading anything. Even moderators are members, and are subject to all of the rules of normal member. Are you suggesting hiring an outside person to be the middleman? Because either way, this elected official you're so keen on would still be a member.

But please, keep the cute little death threats coming. It just means you're running out of things to say.

Post edited at 6:13 pm on July 19, 2008 by Prince o palities

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Dear World,
You need me.

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Quote: from El Manana at 9:29 pm on July 19, 2008

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First of all, I'm very sorry about your executed friend.  

 LW has lost it's true meaning and is now stuck in a limbo between a place to express yourself freely and a support site. This makes it a breeding ground for trolls and spam, especially for the "support" context. I have grown tired of LiveWire's ways (this is not my first account), part of this because of the moderation staff. I am not sure whether this part of the site can ever truly be fixed, be it by people appointed to moderate mods or the promotion of multiple admins, but I'm at the brink of giving up altogether.  

 You're right, the oversight board has next to no power and rarely flexes its muscle anyways. I've witnessed the moderation staff regularly abuse its powers, and there are guidelines on this site that are absolutely ridiculous, like the deletion of posts because there is "gratuitous" use of language or sexual terms.  

 I have witnessed another member leave this site to start his own support forum, which has going pretty well. I myself am thinking about creating my own forum, but not a support oriented one, just a place designed for teen. Somewhat like a hangout site, my forum would have no rules except no posting porn and no threatening another member or encouraging violence. Maybe my liberal views are just seeping into my common sense, who knows?  

 Anyways, I'm going off on a tangent, but I agree with you.

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We will see how long this site of your friend's lasts. Neo's website? Just because he has different views than the mods of LW you think this is going to solve all problems throughout different forums on the internet?

People will not change under a new moderation team, system, or website. People are who they are, and it seems they either don't want help anymore or they're too worried to post their problems here..

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NEO has appointed a second admin to make sure there is always someone else there if his morals start to change, has set a limit to how long moderators can stay in power, and allows the community to have a say in who should be promoted to moderator.  These changes, while subtle, may just keep the site in line.

It is not about changing people, it is about attracting the right crowd. As for your theory about people can't/won't change, LW was at one time a site fully devoted to support.  The crowd changed did it not?  Who's to say the implementation of new rules can't change this mentality back?

I suggest David change this site fast of he wants to retain long time members.  This site is hurtling to the pits.

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LiveWire Teen and Peer Social Network:golivewire.ning.com
Sometimes I go Berserk

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Quote: from Fenton at 9:39 pm on July 19, 2008

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Quote: from August Rush at 1:37 pm on July 19, 2008

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JohnQ & Fenton    
  You are looking for holes in my argument.

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 Pardon me, but isn't that the essence of debate?

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Yes it is, but you seem to be picking it to death.
I understand you disagree with my points but other people agree with them.  

Keep an open mind, you can't always be right. Think for a second that there may actually be some promise in what im suggesting

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I'm simply being thorough. Sure, the idea is great, and would work in any hypothetical universe where everyone behaved. However, communism was also a nice, fair idea, and we all know how that ended up.

The real task wouldn't be getting this all set up, it would be putting it into effect and actually having it make a difference. THAT'S where the details will be stressed, and THAT'S why I'm being nit-picky.

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Dear World,
You need me.

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I don't like how the Moderators have the ability to censor topics, opinions or people that they dislike or disagree with. It's not so much their power that I appose but their totalitarian way of managing the site.

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Where are the examples on this supposed censorship?  I've moderated a few huge websites, and this website has the LEAST biased actions I've ever seen.  Do the moderators pretend to love each member?  No.  Do we have favorites?  Yes.  But do we hold that over members?  Do we take action against other members based on that?  Do we censor unpopular opinions?  No no and no.

Take a look at the mod forum, or even DTRM.  We don't censor opinions that directly call us names, make false claims (or true claims).  Where do you get this claim from?  Where's the substance?

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Posting a moderator error report is pretty much like asking a dictator to reconsider his actions. Most of the time as they justified the action in the first place they are unwilling to reconsider. Useless!

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I understand the analogy, and from someone looking in, I can see why that argument is made.  However, from someone who is on the inside, and does see the discussions that come forth from MERs, it isn't the case.  If a member files a valid MER, it will be overturned.  The problem is that 95% of them aren't valid, so they aren't overturned, so members just assume "Oh, it just doesn't matter!" - Not true.

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Now, am I completely against this system your proposing?  No, not really.  However, I definitely don't see the difference between your proposal and the oversight board.  The oversight board has everything they need to decide if abuse occurs, and guess what?  They hardly ever do anything at all.  They have the power, they have the means, but they never exercise it, because it never really needs to be exercised.

There was no-one to appose the moderators decision to remove the topic. That is the position I am suggesting

I know that each moderator is different and I can imagine there is a lot of debate within the ranks but i'm simply saying that all this decision making and elitist management all huddled together doesn't really offer much chance of change or flexibility.

I agree with El Manana :

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It is not about changing people, it is about attracting the right crowd. As for your theory about people can't/won't change, LW was at one time a site fully devoted to support.  The crowd changed did it not?  Who's to say the implementation of new rules can't change this mentality back?

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Im not suggesting a group of middlemen with full moderator powers because as you say the consequences could be catastrophic.. but someone with the power to throw a spanner in the works.

Yes im tired and im sure there are plenty of holes in my arguments as i said from the start but im sure my direction is supported by many members on this site.

Post edited at 2:08 pm on July 19, 2008 by August Rush

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From the UK? - Join the group!

Please Give Me Points :-)

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How does any of that make sense or have any bearing on this discussion?

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how does any of his personal moment have any bearing on this discussion?

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One of the main problems of this site is the mod staff. A change in mod attitude and the entire moderation system can greatly change the overall mood of a site. The deep-rooted detest for the moderation team of this site is not just because of some innate teenage hate for authority, but because of the incompetence of the moderation staff, and partly David's fault.

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The fact that moderators are allowed their own opinions and their own points of view is one of my absolute favorite things about this website.  As I said above this, I've moderated large end sites before, and those large end sites managed our personalities in a huge way.  I can tell you, from first hand knowledge, ALL that did was aggravate the team, cause huge amounts of angry feelings towards the higher ups, and cause inner-fighting among the people who were challenging the management.  

LiveWire mods can argue with each other, and dislike each other, but for the most part, we work as a team, and we do it fairly well.  Are their some subjects we will all never see eye to eye on?  Well of course.  But that only goes to show that we can agree to disagree and move on to a new subject.  What I'm trying to tell you here is that while you think your way is best, I highly disagree, and I'd venture to say 90% of the mod team would disagree.  You see it making members happy and retaining them because that's the way YOU want it.  I see it making them leave because I know that's what I would do if this site was ran like Neo's.

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NEO has appointed a second admin to make sure there is always someone else there if his morals start to change, has set a limit to how long moderators can stay in power, and allows the community to have a say in who should be promoted to moderator. These changes, while subtle, may just keep the site in line.

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And his site is very new, and still very wet behind the ears.  What is it up to now?  Two topics per week?  Of course he can change things up a bit.  LiveWire =/= Neo's site.  He can run it the way he wants, but I guarantee you, it will never be as big as LiveWire, so LiveWire MUST be doing something right.

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It is not about changing people, it is about attracting the right crowd. As for your theory about people can't/won't change, LW was at one time a site fully devoted to support. The crowd changed did it not? Who's to say the implementation of new rules can't change this mentality back?

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Uh, no.  They are mutually cohesive from what I can see.  You're suggesting we do change people, to keep the 'right' crowd, but that's still CHANGING people.  Think of some of the opinions here, and some of the members here.  No matter how much you want to argue that this site should be more support driven, your argument will absolutely fail because you know that if it was 100% support driven, 50% of LiveWire (most of these statistics are made up of course, but you get the point) members would leave, because it would be boring.

100% support is boooooring, hence why this site has changed over the years.  Right now, we are at a medium level of support and topics that keep people around.  The support is here, people still give it, people still get it, people still ask for it - but so are the topics that keep the rest of the members around.  That's a good deal, and I see no reason to change it.  Could things be refined in both directions?  Yes, but definitely not to the extent you seem to think, or Neo seems to think.

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Let me give the Ask a Brit "spamfest" as an example.
.

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What would have been a better way to handle that?  There were already up to 25 topics made, and the 'STOP MAKING THESE TOPICSSS' topics were starting to roll in.  Not to mention the Misconduct reports sent.  

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:)

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i don't know how it makes sense. i was in a hurry because i had to go.

how does any of his personal moment have any bearing on this discussion?

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His personal moment is what justifies his personal feelings regarding censorship, and its placement draws an allusion between the current LW system and the Chinese government.

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cuz i'm feelin for him what he's feelin for me

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Not to mention the Misconduct reports sent.

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Quote: from August Rush at 2:07 pm on July 19, 2008

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 Let me give the Ask a Brit "spamfest" as an example.  
.

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What would have been a better way to handle that? There were already up to 25 topics made, and the 'STOP MAKING THESE TOPICSSS' topics were starting to roll in. Not to mention the Misconduct reports sent.

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In all honesty I would have allowed all the topics to continue because they would have died down eventually and maybe some members would be annoyed but then some members were asking some rather interesting questions.

I dont think its a case of to what extent do you stop it but I think a more important decision to be made is whether the moderators should get involved in that sort of thing in the first place.

This site is packed full of spam, troll topics etc. these topics were individual and were being posted by people who were interested in sharing their culture.

I did not se any evidence of people taking it too far, or posting a thread which they could not maintain themselves.

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From the UK? - Join the group!

Please Give Me Points :-)

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Ok, maybe it was a bit unfair of me to compare the moderators on this site to a dictatorship but I still believe that once huddled together the moderators on this site can squash freedom of speech and learning.

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You're right. If the mods wanted to 'huddle' together and completely destroy freedom of speech and learning here, we could do it. But it won't happen, and it'll never happen. So your argument pretty much completely falls apart here. You can't insist on a new position that needs to be added when there is no reason for it to be added because something of the magnitude that would require the position has never happened.

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Let me give the Ask a Brit "spamfest" as an example.  
I believe that had that continued it would have been a great opportunity for people to learn a little bit more about different cultures and societies. And it would be impossible to have the same sort of thing in a single topic. Just imagine one person from each country around the world sitting in a room... then they all start to talk to each other at the same time.. Chaos.

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You must be kidding? I count 18 deleted topics that were part of the "Ask a ____" spamfest. No valid discussion was coming out of "Ask a Bacon," August. It was repetitive topic spam that sometimes happens on forums, and rightfully so, it was all trashed. A simple solution, "Ask a ____ a question!" topic - that might have some actual discussion in it, but a bunch of spammed topics do nothing for no one. Talk about chaotic - 18 topics about "ask a ___"? Really? lol.

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I know that each moderator is different and I can imagine there is a lot of debate within the ranks but i'm simply saying that all this decision making and elitist management all huddled together doesn't really offer much chance of change or flexibility.

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You don't see the fallacy in your argument though. You're claiming this elitist management, but you can't give me any examples of it, even though I've asked. When I did ask, you backtracked your original statement. So where is this elitist management? Where do moderators blend their personal opinions into moderation? How is your idea different that the oversight board?

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Im not suggesting a group of middlemen with full moderator powers because as you say the consequences could be catastrophic.. but someone with the power to throw a spanner in the works.

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A position that isn't needed. A position to prevent moderator abuse that doesn't happen, and when it does, it's overturned by the mod team itself.

Post edited at 2:26 pm on July 19, 2008 by The Professional